Should Religion Be Part of Your Brand?
September 4, 2008 by Kristen King
Filed under Leadership
(www.bizchicksrule.com) — I have been wanting to post about this for a long time, but I’ve been putting it off because I couldn’t figure out a way to discuss it tactfully. So, I’ve given up on tact. I wish companies would keep their religious views to themselves. Including them on your trucks, teeshirts, website, whatever is unprofessional and it makes me angry. Really, really angry. Here’s why.
It annoys me everywhere I see companies making blatant religious statements as part of their brand, but I am particularly irritated by Covenant Transport. Covenant is widely regarded as being a "Christian" company, and its Founder and Head David R. Parker is featured in the 2004 book Evangelical Christian Executives, by Lewis D. Solomon. According to the Inspired Companies website, Covenant is a subsidiary of Christian Community Companies, Inc.
That’s all well and good. I don’t really care about that, but I want to clarify that this is why I feel that what I’m about to discuss is indeed a religious statement, not just a personal belief. Evangelical Christian Executives discusses the presence of "corporate chaplains" in the company, as well as other religious elements and practices throughout the chapter dealing with Covenant. On page 39, Senior VP and CFO Joey B. Hagan is quoted as saying, "We think religion rounds out a person’s life, but it is not a prerequisite for hiring or advancement inside the company." Also on that same page, Senior VP for Marketing and Sales Ronald B. Pope is quoted as saying, "If you lack character, morality, ethics, and the desire to work hard, you won’t go forward in the company."
And that is where we find the sticking point: Morality and ethics according to whom?
The back of every Covenant truck I have ever seen (and I’ve seen a lot because there’s a truck stop between my house and the highway) has a large sticker on the back that reads, "It Is Not A Choice It Is A Child." I’m not talking about some dude who slapped an bumper sticker on his truck, but it’s a company-issued design element that appears on virtually every Covenant truck on the right-side trailer door. Of course I haven’t personally seen their entire fleet, so I can’t say for sure that it’s on every single one, but I’m confident in guessing that it’s a vast majority, if not all of them.
Your job is to transport materials from point A to point B safely and on time. Period. Your job is not to lecture passersby on the company’s stance on abortion. This isn’t about my beliefs on abortion: This is about good business practices and appropriate behavior. It is not appropriate to plaster your materials, including vehicles with religious statements, just as it’s not appropriate to hang a giant crucifix in your cubicle. Apparently it’s worked out okay for Covenant Transport. According to their About page, they are ranked as one of the largest truckload carriers in the US according to revenue. But I’m talking about a principle here, and one I think is very, very important in business.
This is my question to Covenant Transport: What does being pro-life or pro-choice or Christian or pagan or nothing at all have to do with your ability to DO YOUR JOB?
And what if I’m a pro-choice truck driver? What if I’m a Jew? Or a pagan? Or an atheist? Will you not hire me because my "morality" and "ethics" aren’t those of the Christian faith? Will I stagnate in the company because my morals, which are just as valid as yours, happen tobe different? Can I take the sticker off my truck because it violates my beliefs? Will you refuse to serve my company as a client because you find out that I’m pro-choice and my "morality" and "ethics" aren’t in line with yours?
Does Parker have the right to practice his religion and live according to his moral, ethical, and religious beliefs? Yes. Should those beliefs inform his dealings with clients, employees, and partners? Of course. Does he have the right to brand his company however he wants and adorn his fleet in whatever way he sees fit? Absolutely. But I ask again: What does being pro-life or pro-choice or Christian or pagan or whatever have to do with your ability to DO YOUR JOB? Nothing.
I think it’s unwise to use a company to promote one’s own religious beliefs. It creates a potentially litigious environment and it alienates a huge portion of the potential client base, if for no other reason than that they think you’re unprofessional. Which I do, because although your work life should align with your personal values (it would be a horrible disconnect to go ripping people off Mon-Fri and then preacing against stealing on Sundays, for instance), your personal life should be personal, and I don’t want to hear about it — not in the board room, and not when I drive past your trucks every day.
Having the right to do something does not mean you should do something, and I don’t think companies should make the religious beliefs of the founders part of the company’s branding.
What do YOU think?
Contents © Copyright 2008 Kristen King
(image: Newscom)
Tags: womens business blog, women, woman, business, religion, branding, beliefs, morality, ethics, covenant transport, covenant trucking, david r parker, evangelical christian executives, lewis d solomon, pro-life, pro choice, It Is Not A Choice It Is A Child, biz chicks rule, kristen king
Wow. Incredibly insightful and well written article (as usual, Kristen). I can’t say I disagree with you when it comes to the company you highlight, either. In a way, though, that’s me as the “pot calling the kettle black.”
I use my religion as part of my blog brand, “Mormon Foodie.” Mostly that’s because I’m writing from the perspective a member of that religion’s culture. My religion is tied into my product, and my target audience. I suspect that the majority of my audience are also members of the same church.
Of course, I also don’t practice exclusivity, nor do I employ anyone. If I did, I can’t imagine why an employee’s religion would be an issue for me.
When I hire others to do things for me, I don’t ask about their religion or “moral values.” I just want to know if they can get the job done. I’ve never asked a “guest blogger” what their religion is, either. I just asked, “would this content fit my audience?”
Still, I really do feel like I’m walking a fine at times.
Then again, I think, why do some people care so much what I do? I mean. It’s my blog. If they don’t care, or get overly offended by a religious reference, they won’t come back. I don’t have to worry about it, though. They’re not my target audience.
I hope YOU won’t be offended, and I’m not trying to defend Covenant Transport, but something in your last two paragraphs (and my response to them) reminded me of the arguments that some child advocate groups use to fight pornographers. The roles are just reversed.
The child advocates say, “That should be stopped!”
The pornographers say, “Then quit looking.”
My analogy isn’t perfect, I’ll admit. Maybe my “seige mentality” us kicking in. But parts of this argument still remind me of and old argument I hear quite often from all intolerant groups, “All ideas are good and shouldn’t be censored! (Unless they disagree with mine.)”
Just food for thought.
If part of your religion is to proselytize then it could absolutely be part of your brand to share with the universe your views.
If one of those trucks makes one person decide to be ’saved’ - the owner of the company has done his job in a spiritual sense.
Also there are people that do NOT want to give money to people that may use that money to support an abortion clinic, or smoking, or non-Christian activities or families.
I’m okay with people using their faith as part of a brand, because that tells me what I need to know, which is if I work with them I’m going to hear about religion. I mean, people say to niche, and religion is a niche like any other - even if those who use it as a marketing technique think it’s something bigger or more holy than a gimmick.
I guess, despite the fact that I don’t classify myself as Pro-Life (though I don’t really fit Pro-Choice, either), it doesn’t bother me so much. Covenant professes to be a Christian company, and I know that the company is headed by a conservative Evangelical, so it doesn’t really make me angry. I wouldn’t do business with the company, but that’s me. I ignore the bumper stickers. But I do agree it is a little unprofessional.
I actually have a much harder time with political figures (ahem, many in the GOP) co-opting God and making out that everyone who doesn’t agree with is an evil sinner.
As a business owner, I would not do what Covenant is doing. However, I would not criticize them either. Why? Two reasons. First, because they are successful. When a team makes it to the Super Bowl, I certainly can’t say that they don’t know how to play football. Secondly, I respect anyone who boldly expresses their opionion whether I agree with it or not. Too many people today are afraid of speaking because they may offend someone. I learned long ago, that not everyone will agree with me, respect me, like me or want to be my friend. Convenant is simply exercising their constitutional rights. Although I may not think it is a good business practice for me, it seems to work for them.
I find it bad enough, from the PR perspective, when I hear about companies more quietly supporting religious causes. When I see a company choose to associate itself, as a whole, with any religious ideals, I refuse to have anything to do with that company.
I don’t care what the CEO, founder, or toilet scrubber does with their own personal funds and time, or how public they choose to be about it. Religion is a personal choice no matter what path you’re on. It’s not a corporate one.
Again, from the PR perspective, you automatically alienate huge potential client groups, as well as other publics (the media, employees, residents in your locale, potential investors, etc.) if they don’t align themselves not only with your general religious beliefs, but any specific agenda you’re pushing (in your example, the pro-life agenda - I’d be just as annoyed to see someone pushing a pro-choice agenda on company vehicles for the record). These people aren’t thinking about those other audiences they have to answer to. And you’ve very aptly given them an example of a public audience not appreciative of their outward image - the people who have to live around their work.
It gives them a sense of control and the ability to “bully” employees too, which I find particularly disturbing. Let’s be completely honest here - they’re keeping out people who don’t agree with their religious beliefs by being so overt about them that otherwise highly qualified folks would never choose to work there, even if there weren’t other options. That’s discriminatory. And as for those involved in the company - don’t even try to tell me they don’t feel any kind of pressure to conform to the standards of their bosses; either that or keep their mouths shut and quietly go about their business like sheep rather than being able to feel fully engaged in the company.
It’s BS. It’s no different than bosses forcing their employees to listen to political speeches whether or not they support the particular party, and it has a very “big brother” feel to it (be careful what you do or say - someone might report you for being un-Christian). It’s pathetic.
Express your religious beliefs, no matter what they might be. Do it loudly. Make your points. Work to convert others to your heart’s desire. But do it on your own time, and don’t use your elevated business position to make people feel “forced” to confirm - whether it’s intentional or not, that’s exactly what they’re doing.
Jen, good point: “I’m okay with people using their faith as part of a brand, because that tells me what I need to know, which is if I work with them I’m going to hear about religion.” You also raise a good point about niche marketing. Seems an odd choice for a trucking company, but nonetheless… :)
Miranda, thanks for the comment. I was debating whether to do this post on religion and politics both, but I decided to go with one at a time. ;) But believe me, I’m getting there!
John, a well-written and insightful COMMENT, as usual. :) I think there’s a difference between Mormon Foodie and Covenant Transport. Mormons have certain dietary restrictions, so if you’re writing (and cooking) from that standpoint, it makes sense — to me, anyway — because it IS related to the service you’re performing and the product you’re delivering.
I hear what you’re saying about the argument, and I appreciate your raising the point. All I’ll say is that I never stated that I don’t agree with his beliefs, just that I don’t agree with his choice in using his business to propagate them. My issue is not his beliefs. I don’t care if he worships feet. I just don’t think the business arena is the place for that message, regardless of what the beliefs are.
Ron, great comment. Thanks for weighing in.
kk
Jenn, I couldn’t have said it better myself: “Express your religious beliefs, no matter what they might be. Do it loudly. Make your points. Work to convert others to your heart’s desire. But do it on your own time, and don’t use your elevated business position to make people feel “forced” to confirm - whether it’s intentional or not, that’s exactly what they’re doing.” Great comment.
I’m enormously grateful that Kristen had the guts to open this subject, since I’ve also been looking for a “diplomatic” way to do it that wouldn’t get me blasted off the planet.
I plan to add my thoughts next Monday at http://www.leadershipturn.com.
Actually Kristin, you would have said it better - you wouldn’t have misspelled “conform” like I did. ;)
I can’t remember the last time I cared much about diplomacy in my blogging - frankly, blunt honesty has always worked well for me, and my whole business was built upon it. You’d be surprised how many people respect you for it in the long run girl, so as long as you’ve taken the time to really hash out what you think, feel, and want to say before doing it, never be afraid to speak your mind.
Thank you so much for bringing this topic up. Personally, I cannot stand it when someone brings up their “faith” during a business conversation. It is a turn me off. Also, when I see stuff in blog comments that include Bible quotes the 1st thing I think of is this:
“Here comes another hypocrite.”
It never fails. The ones who wear their religion on their sleeves are the ones who 9 times out of 10, lie about something in the near future, and are more full of S _ _ T than the folks who don’t preach their religious views.
Joel Libava
Cleveland
Jenn, typos happen. No worries. And thanks for the reminder that blunt works. ;)
Joel, I don’t mean to suggest that Parker or his employees are hypocrites. I don’t know them. What I do know is that I think the practice of promoting your religious beliefs through your business branding weirds me out, for the reasons I mentioned in my post. Re: scripture-based comments, I make them all the time when I feel the principle is relevant. The Bible is the most popular book in the world by distribution and is available in literally thousands of languages, so it’s a good resource that is readily available to most people and is widely regarded as authoritative. I think your prejudice against organized religion may be showing. Just sayin’…
kk
Great post (as always) and great comments from all! Jenn said it so much better than I ever could, so I’ll just quote her here:
“Express your religious beliefs, no matter what they might be. Do it loudly. Make your points. Work to convert others to your heart’s desire. But do it on your own time, and don’t use your elevated business position to make people feel “forced” to confirm - whether it’s intentional or not, that’s exactly what they’re doing.”
Ditto!
Excellent post and it’s about time this topic was brought out into the open. Stumbled!
Barbara
How about “Truckin’ for Jesus” ? A company I saw in Florida. Companies who profess their religion publicly are setting themselves up for problems. If they profess to be Christian and a customer feels they were cheated (whether or not they really were), they will tell everyone “Don’t use that “Truckin’ for Jesus” place - they cheat people! What could be worse for a company?
Kristen,
The only thing I am opposed to is anyone trying to impose their religious beliefs onto me, whether in business, or in a social setting. In business, it just weirds me out more.
Organized religion certainly has it’s place. Just not in MY place.
Joel Libava
I agree with the idea that it should be separated on a business blog/website. And for that matter, yes, in your company, for all the reasons stated so well above. I’m in real estate and there are companies with religious names, there are agents who have blogs with religious names. People have gotten into discussions with them, they know they are limiting their brand’s appeal, but they apparently make the decision that it doesn’t matter, they prefer to appeal to their niche market. As for me, I am probably never likely to deal with your business if you are mixing religion with business.
Thank you, Joel. I so totally agree with you. I am so tired of having almost every person I meet explain to me why
1. I’m a horrible person because I don’t have “the true faith” and will go to Hell.
2. The only true faith is their version and if I don’t switch I’ll go to Hell.
3. The’ll pray for me.
I find number three the most insulting, since it dismisses everything else and assumes their superiority.
Religion is very important. To try to dictate that I should not stand up for the rights of human beings is tyrannical. That is exactly why it’s important for company’s to state what they moral standards are. Would want to work with a practicing Thief? Would you want to work with a practicing Murder? I wouldn’t. None of us is perfect But like Hebrew National We Hold ourselves to a higher standard. It is just not right to try to salve our conscious by suppressing other rights to express their views with their private property. If you want to promote the murder of babies it’s right.
Wow, this is such a great discussion! Thanks, everyone!
Miki, I cannot wait to read your post. Please make sure you ping me and I will link to it here! As to your later comment, for what it’s worth, I think that if you don’t believe your religion is “the right one” it’s time to change religions. :) Also, while I’d like to believe that people always mean when when they assure me that they’ll pray for me, oftentimes the unspoken second half of the sentence, if you trust the speaker’s tone of voice, is, “you hell-bound, sinner. DIE DIE DIE!” But that’s not ALWAYS the case — thank goodness!
Sandie, thanks for commenting. I always love when you come visit me. :)
Barbara, thanks for the Stumble! Glad you enjoyed it.
Joel, I’m so glad you came back to clarify. You’re an important part of this conversation. Thanks!
Carole, you’re right, it’s a personal choice, and it can have consequences, like people choosing not to do business with you because of it.
Clarence, Hebrew National is a great example. I think it’s similar to Mormon Foodie in some ways, which we discussed above. They make kosher products, their name is Hebrew National, the tagline, although religious in nature, is also clever and funny. It works. It’s related to what they do. But being pro-life or pro-choice or Christian or something else has nothing to do with trucking! I made it very clear in my post that I agree that they have the right to do whatever they want with their business — but just because you CAN do something doesn’t mean you SHOULD. Like just because you CAN comment on a blog and say virtually anything you want doesn’t mean you SHOULD imply that the author is a baby killer. See what I mean?
Keep those comments flowing, folks!
You wrote, ‘Having the right to do something does not mean you should do something,’ which for me is the hinge in this whole discussion. Since it IS the right of the company to display that branding on the trucks, I believe if you want it changed then you have to convince the company to change it. It becomes YOUR responsibility to act with integrity, truthfulness and ethics to not take away his right to do whatever he wants on his trucks.
Wow, great article and great comments!
My own personal thoughts? I respect the company’s right to have its own beliefs and share those beliefs with whomever, but I would probably choose another company to do the job. Like another reader wrote above, I can’t really classify myself as pro-life or pro-choice, so in this instance that really has nothing to do with it for me. For me, I frown on being told what is moral and ethical (Like you said, Kristen: Moral and ethical according to whom?), especially from someone/some company that wants MY business. Of course, this company obviously doesn’t need my business to be successful (haha), but at least I’d know I didn’t spend my money on the services of a company that wants me to believe a certain way.
This is all very tricky, because at the same time, I agree with the readers above who support the company’s guts to stand up for what they believe in. I’m sure they’re prepared to lose customers, just as I’m prepared to not spend my money on companies that may think I’m a horrible person based on my beliefs.
Much of the discussion here appears to lean on the side of double-talk.
A. A company should not spout their religious views or preferences on their trucks, pamphlets, etc.
B. A company is considered brave for openly talking about their views, however controversial.
Let me be clear. I am a strong believer in my faith, but I do not go around proselytizing others. However, I do take issue with the overtones here of “we don’t want to hear that crap” when other companies, who DO NOT not spout their faith or their ethics, get to spout their crap all of the time.
What gives with that?
I just want to reiterate that while I wouldn’t want to do business with that company, it doesn’t mean I don’t respect the company’s “guts” or right to believe whatever it wants and share those beliefs.
Some people are going to applaud their actions and do business with them. Some are going to be offended and not do business with them. And some are going to step back and say, “Okay, that’s your right as a human and as the owner of your company, but I don’t particularly like being told what’s ‘ethical’ and ‘moral’ by a company so I’m not going to help fund you by paying money for your services.”
I don’t think it’s so much double talk as it is human nature and the many different elements that go into forming our own opinions.
Barry, you said, “It becomes YOUR responsibility to act with integrity, truthfulness and ethics to not take away his right to do whatever he wants on his trucks.” I agree with you, but I’m not sure if you’re making a general statement or if you’re suggesting that I’m attempting to take away his right to do whatever he wants on his trucks. Can you clarify for me?
Alicia, on some level I think we have to admit that it’s unavoidable that pretty much anyone we meet in personally or professional interactions will have some belief that they would like us to share. But in a business arena, it takes on a whole different life, as this discussion demonstrates. I think you really nailed it in your second comment when you said, “I don’t think it’s so much double talk as it is human nature and the many different elements that go into forming our own opinions.”
Bridget, I think both elements you described apply here, and I don’t think they necessarily constitute “double-talk.” Again, it’s not a question of whether they have the right, or whether it’s brave, cowardly, or neutral to exercise it or not exercise it — it’s a question of whether it’s a smart business decision. I don’t want to hear anyone’s “crap,” but especially when it has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with their work. If it’s relevant, it’s considerably less like “crap” than if it’s totally unrelated.
Kristen writes:
>All I’ll say is that I never stated that I don’t agree with his beliefs, just that I don’t agree with his choice in using his business to propagate them. My issue is not his beliefs. I don’t care if he worships feet. I just don’t think the business arena is the place for that message, regardless of what the beliefs are.<
My apologies if I implied you were doing otherwise.
On the flip side of my own argument, I find that some companies that use religion as a marketing tool can get into trouble with the members of their own faith. I’ve not been accused of practicing “priestcraft” yet (a derogatory reference to priests who use their influence to control secular affairs), but I know a few otherwise innocent people who have. It’s hurt their businesses.
Oh! For the record (or is it shameless self-promotion?). I love having readers of every persuasion. ;)
great topic.. i’ll throw in my two sheckels as well :) when you include religion as part of your brand as who you are as opposed to what you are.. .okay. ramming it down other people’s throats and prosleytizing clearly doesnt work.. in most venues
Shalom all
gp
Kristen,
I did a video on the subject of “Religion And Franchising.” It relates to your great article, and the comments that just keep coming. This is all your fault. Link is below.
Joel Libava
http://thefranchiseking.typepad.com/the_daily_franchise_show/2008/09/religion-and-fr.html
Describing its workforce as Christian doesn’t tell me anything, good or bad, about the company’s business ethics and practices. It just announces, inappropriately, what its owners and staff say they believe in, but so have Jim Baker, Ted Haggard, Oral Roberts’ son and daughter-in-law, Jimmy Swaggart and (insert here the names of any one of dozens – hundreds? – of religious figures who have very loudly said one thing in public while doing another thing in private). I wouldn’t want to do business with those guys, either.
What it does tell me is that:
1. The company lacks professionalism and judgment in this aspect, which makes me wonder about other areas where the company lacks these qualities. Strike one.
2. The company wants to send one of two messages to the public: Either it really is courting only likeminded people as customers, or it’s using its Web site and fleet to tell people who are pro-choice and/or not Christian that they are wrong. Strike two on either count.
3. By choosing to plaster that particular bumper sticker on its company trucks, it endorses the oversimplification of an incredibly important and complicated issue, in a way that is demeaning and condescending to women. Big strike three.
P.S. John: I’m confused. Why would child advocates be arguing with pornographers?
Great comment!
My post tomorrow {Wed. 9-10} on The Franchise King Blog should raise your BOP even more.
Kristen. Again, this is all your fault.
Joel Libava
Very interesting discussion! I’m enjoying it but it’s kind of freaking me out too, as my business name has an element some people would associate with religion, even though it was never my intention to bring a religious aspect to my business practice. I used the word because of a childhood nickname actually. I hope it’s not going to negatively affect my business….
Laurie, ‘halo’ has a whole different meaning in business. It refers to things/happenings that reflect back changing people’s perception of what happened. Check out “The Halo Effect: … and the Eight Other Business Delusions That Deceive Managers.”
For those who haven’t seen it yet, click through to Joel’s post and leave him a comment. It’s awesome.
@John, it sounded to me like you thought I suggested that I disagreed with the beliefs and that’s why I was arguing that they shouldn’t be there, so I just wanted to make sure I was being very, very clear. No worries, and no apology necessary.
@GP, thanks for the comment.
@Cory, although I appreciated all of your points, this one really resonated with me: “By choosing to plaster that particular bumper sticker on its company trucks, it endorses the oversimplification of an incredibly important and complicated issue…” Well said, well said.
Also @Cory, I think John meant that child advocates would be opposing child pornography and that the pornographers would respond, “If you don’t like it, don’t look at it.” I may be wrong, but that argument works for me.
@Laurie, I could go either way with the name, but as Miki said, it has a specific meaning in the business world, and I suspect that your target clients would recognize that over anything else. unless, of course, your website is plastered with blinking angels. That would be another story. ;) I can’t get your website to load, so I have no idea.
I have a question. Is it as much that the business is making it part of their branding/message or branding their entire company ON it?
To that end, if that is the market and the audience, then it makes some sense. But not a wise choice in that it “can ” limit future growth, in my opionion. If they want to market to all, then it makes no sense in branding and branding messages unless they segement and market differently to different target market’s and demographics.
Even my second propostion would look like a fine line to walk. How do you cater to one group and not alienate the others ? For me personally, if a company wishes to cater to a certain type of client, okay fine. If a comany appears to have an agenda to ” convert ” me to an excessively rabid ” Fan “; I’ll pretty quickly turn on my ” you will not assimilate me ” kill-switch. ( I am not entirely mentioning religious beliefs here ). I really feel this way about a lot of marketing and advertising and how it’s done.
The above is my more logical response to what I think. My emotional answer to the religion and branding question is this; ” Out damn spot, out I say “. Now don’t freak, anyone. I am huge a believer in separation of church and state-in govt., politics and I add in business. A thought postion I didn’t catch in anything above.
And free choice- Two Rights will always make a ” wrong “- when we end up trying to impose our beliefs on another person or group. Lot’s of stuff in history to support that, depending on how one chooses to look at it all.
And I am certain that much deeper held thought and beliefs about all of this are running through all of our veins, and I think that is just great. It means that we are all alive and kicking at the world. Thanks for the “eggs ” to post on this, Kristen.
It is hard to understand how reading a sign on the back of a truck is “having religion forced on you.” How weak minded one must be to feel that a stated opinion on a sign is “forcing” them in some way. I see prochoice and prolife signs all the time - I have yet to feel “forced” by any of them.
The CEO of this Covenant company made a decision to stand up for something he believes in. Good for him. Whether you’re a trucker or a shipper, if you don’t like what he believes, find another trucking company - there are plenty to choose from. He’ll lose your business or your skills and that is apparently soemthing he is willing to do. If it hurts him in the marketplace, well, that’s his problem, which he’s free to have.
Freedom of religion does not have to equate to freedom _from_ religion. If you are confident in what you believe you will not be bothered by the beliefs of others. I have deeply held views and beliefs. Seeing messages that contradict my beliefs doesn’t phaze me at all. I expect to see them. To be upset by them is weak. I think you need to get a backbone, ’cause you seem like whiner to me.